Stacks Pro Update

Spot on.

I’m pretty optimistic and positive for the future stacks and Stacks App. If things go bang in the future, then that will happen, there is nothing I can do about it, I will just have to find an alternative solution when that time comes. I remember when the talk first started about the demise of Flash, my face was a picture of horror, then when it became confirmed and the end loomed the cold sweats started and I thought I’ve invested years in this, now what will I do. Didn’t take long to jump to Hype. Same happened with Wordpress and Beaver Builder plugin, I look at that now and think “Why???” it is great for Wordpress, but rubbish compared to the power the Stacks platform provided since for my workflow.

Stacks, the stacks available, the great support I have received from devs, make me very positive, no plans to jump ship, but if forced to, well then so be it, I will find an alternative if forced. Not expecting that to happen though anytime soon. Frameworks, CSS grids, whatever you want to use, there is the choice, now that is great.

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Your Hype stacks are excellent, looking forward to seeing future developments with these.

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Yes I agree with this. We still have a very nice solution, that most likely is going to work for years to come. Particularly with all the very nice developers we have in this community. They keep updating and helping with their stacks and their help is extended even beyond their own stacks, and covers most of the website creation process.
I am pretty sure our developers will find ways to keep helping us in the future, for the foreseeable future, we still have a very nice working platform, even with just RW 8, RWC is not even needed in this regard. As long as Isiah keeps hunting bugs down and developing Stacks we are good for at least some years.
Now one thing that is happening right now is the development of AI which has gone crazy with the latest releases of ChatGPT and advances in AI image creation. AI for website creation is already a thing. Further development in this direction is a certainty, and the development of these AI´s will speed up proportionally faster and faster, with a speed that will seem impossible with our old understanding of things. AI will change everyone’s profession and it is going to do it a lot faster than anyone will be expecting.

Thanks a lot!

So getting back to the original topic. IMO Stacks needs to be more than this. The developers will go where they can make money. If StacksPro becomes a niche product the price has to go up for everything to support the smaller user base. Would you still use Stacks if the entire system increases in cost by 2-10 times?

I am not questioning the product. I am questioning the size and retention of the user base, the availability of the products, the time for deployment, the price for the entire ecosystem.

I think you are going down a bit of a rabbit hole here Mark.

You are taking a very pessimistic view of the future of RW, Stacks and the various frameworks. The market will drive development and the success or otherwise of those developments will drive the customer base.

Suggesting that costs will increase by 10x is just scaremongering.

I was a very happy user of Apple’s iWeb before they dumped it. I moved on choosing the best solution for me and that was Rapidweaver but after I discovered Stacks and then Foundation, I didn’t look back.

However I don’t think I need to be looking for a new web authoring package any time soon. I will certainly try Stacks Pro and I will continue to use RW 8 for as long as it keeps working.

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Mark, my sense is that a big driver of the stacks market has come from developers who started by creating stacks for their own benefit. And there has always been a strong communitarian impulse — Andrew’s excellent stacks have been ‘coffeeware’, and about half of Will Woodgate’s very useful stacks are made available for free. Most others are priced at levels that can be justified by a single project. I can see all this only growing in the more constrained times that seem to lie ahead.

For me, the key question here is: ‘who does RW/Stacks work best for?’ It’s obviously not beginners, or those who just want a drag-and-drop web-building app. They are better served elsewhere. Likewise it’s not for full-stack developers working with various coding platforms. Somewhere between these are users whose web-building ambitions go beyond Wix or Squarespace (or Wordpress, for that matter), who enjoy making things by putting stuff together (even if it can mean quite a lot of troubleshooting), and who see the point of stacks as a productivity boosting tool. I don’t know how many people fall into this category, but this seems to be where stacks are now, and it’s clearly where RW/Stacks should be positioning itself.

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The follow on from this is that the best and brightest new developers will not be attracted into this uncertain and unpredictable world of RW. We are losing developers and losing the interest of those who made a huge contribution to RW + Stacks.

Well, for me I’m glad that my Volt CMS for Blocs covers a lot of the losses I’ve had due to the drop in stacks sales. Still I’m at half the revenue from last year 😤

I’ll soon release a new product, a photo gallery, for both Blocs and Stacks (first Blocs 😉).

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I’m sorry you’re in this boat. Glad to see the new products! You proved my point. Hoping for a much more calm and stable 2023 and beyond.

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Just to put a more upbeat slant at the end of 2022, here are some of the highpoints of this last Stacks year for me, and illustrate some of the amazing things our committed devs continue to enable us to add to our sites (there was, of course, a lot more):

January:
1LD ‘Configure’

February:
WeaverSpace ‘PWA Pro’

March:
RealMac ‘RapidWeaver Classic’

May:
WeaverSpace ‘Drift’

June:
Shaking The Habitual ‘Splider 2’
WeaverSpace ‘Raincheck’

August:
WeaverSpace ‘Feeds’
1LD ‘Layouts 2’

October:
Shaking The Habitual ‘Palette’
YourHead ‘Stacks 5.0’

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@jamessouttar your list is very interesting. However, I didn’t even recognise some of the stacks you mentioned, and only knew the name of some of others without knowing what the stacks does.

This situation is actually one of the biggest problems that RW + Stacks faces now and has faced for a while, but it took a PR nose dive after March. The old buggy, paid advertising dominated RM marketplace was haemoraging new content for years, with the most creative and productive devs not even using it (for good reason). The new marketplace requiring users to re-enter everything killed off content and the majority of devs have boycotted it (again for good reason). There are currently only 37 stacks in the RM MarketPlace, which is a fraction of the Brics & Blocs available in the BlocsStore. I recall that @wolf mentioned he had over 5000 stacks, so we know that at least 5000 stacks exist.

Today, there is no single source of comprehensive information that announces or lists all new developments within the RW Stacks world. What little information exists, is fragmented around 4 forums and mail shots and for 3 or the 4, is exclusive of news that doesn’t promote the forum owners agenda. Even the Yourhead Twitter news has stopped.

For StackPro to be successful there has to be effective marketing.

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I have no doubt Isaiah is aware of fragmentation of the Stacks Ecosystem. No doubt this will be better without RW mixed in the middle.

I am hoping Isaiah or some truly independent guardian will volunteer to be the captain of the stacks add-on world. Perhaps that persons can be compensated with a small monthly fee or percentage of sales to be the administrator.

The history shows that left with some of the developers things get a bit, or a lot, biased.

I really am hoping Stacks survives and thrives. Competition is always a good thing for creativity and price controls. Plus he is just a really nice guy.

Merry Christmas everyone! 🎄 🧑‍🎄

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Just to bring a little balance to the discussion, I think it is worth remembering that those of us who post on these threads and the ideas above (whilst all very valid) are by no means representative of the wider user base.

I deal with hundreds of support tickets each year and the vast majority are not advanced users. They are using a framework in a basic fashion and a few other 3rd party stacks; many have relatively recently moved away from using themes and are still quite new to “whole page” design.

Stacks happily serves these basic users, professional website designers and advanced enthusiasts.

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I don’t think one should underestimate the recognition that the RapidWeaver name has. For over two decades it was often featured in magazines, podcasts, tutorials and is still very much recommended as a quick and easy way to build a website to a novice.

Even on PC/Windows forums, questions like “is there something like RapidWeaver for Windows?” sparks recognition among other Windows users. That’s how well known RapidWeaver is with home/hobby users.

Stacks has always been an easy way to move up the ladder from basic theme-filling to full fledged page design. The low threshold means that users don immediately have to leave their old page design behind; chances are most users combine themes and stacks on their projects.

IMHO the biggest challenge that StacksPro has in the future, is how to find new users. The word of mouth is very much focussed on RapidWeaver, with Stacks maybe as a side note, and not so much Stacks as a seperate entity.

If you want to attract new users, Yourhead is going to have to market the app quite differnetly to how they were used to market Stacks. Send StacksPro to MacFormat, blogs, MacRumours, YouTube channels etc. Do a YouTube series of tutorials. Give it away to the people most likely to influence buying decisions for others.

This challenge is about as big as the technical challenges, but easy to over look.

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I agree that there are many users who have ‘relatively recently moved away from using themes’, but this is part of RW’s problem. If Stacks did happily serve these basic users, it would be a different matter. I look back at the journey I‘ve made with RW, and the opposite has been the case: I came to it originally because a friend enthused about it and wanted me to create a theme for him (this is pre-Stacks). We did that, but building the site he wanted in that theme pushed RW to its limits, involving vast amounts of inline css. When Stacks came along, those we were using (I remember early versions of ‘moving box’ ‘mootools’ and others) were really hard to work out, or get to work properly. Fortunately stackmaking has come a long way since then.

My friend soon after abandoned RW for Wordpress (which, to be honest, was much more suitable for his needs). I stuck with Stacks, as by then I’d built a few — much simpler — themes for sites for myself and my partner. But even as stacks have become better, they still involve large amounts of troubleshooting — that’s been my experience. For instance, I loved the idea of Foundation when it came out, but I had it for a year before I could get past the problems I was having with TopBar. There was no proper documentation (Joe had written a good guide to RW5, but information on his own products was pretty sketchy) and there weren’t the forums we have now. Eventually, I mastered Foundation, via Screens (which made me realise I needed some kind of container stack, and then there was Sections). It’s still the case that, until I‘ve spent half a day putting a new stack through its paces — and have some kind of project to create with it — I don’t know where I’m going with it. And some have been massive timewasters: RapidCart has provided countless hours of frustrating troubleshooting over the years (and still does). Sometimes it could be one little syntax issue, which the stackmaker had omitted to mention, which made the difference between something working or not.

This long-winded explanation is the the reason I can’t, in all conscience, recommend RW/Stacks to the user who has ‘relatively recently moved away from using themes’, even now. Stacks have got easier to use, to a degree, but many of the stacks we have now are also an order of magnitude more complex than those original ones. They’re not just ‘plug and play’ — making a Poster blog, for instance, can be like assembling a 10,000 piece Lego set. I love Poster, and appreciate its power, but like so many other stacks, it doesn’t just do its thing. (Indeed, Sections Pro, which is the Swiss Army Knife of Stacks, doesn’t just do its thing either — a weekend workshop would probably only cover its basics).

Given that this is where we are with stacks — with an environment which gives us access to powerful, but often complex, tools — I think we need to recognise it. It works very well for a certain kind of user. It works very well now for me. That’s just like saying Photoshop works very well for a certain kind of user — of whom, fortunately for Adobe, there are a vast number. Day 1 of Photoshop, though, is a minor hell for someone who is completely new to it.

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Depends what you want to archive. If you go for plain text and images, which follow your themes styling, you’re fast. If you want all bells and whistles, well, then you might find yourself in the Lego set you’ve mentioned.

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A website is a balance between speed, functionality and design. The more complex the overhead and the more time it takes to build and test. This is the way. 😊

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We are back to the same stacks issue where you can choose a super light solution or a monster of a solution with stacks from different devs in stacks in stacks, etc… You can build a complex Poster2 blog with just a few Source Coder stacks that are not complex or difficult to debug and achieve a 100% Lighthouse score.

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I’m not levelling this as a complaint against Poster, which I love — and freely admit my wayward inclination to always want to do more than I know how to do makes things more difficult than they might otherwise be. But the 10,000 piece Lego set is true of many of the stacks that are appearing today: F6, Total CMS, Drift, Source Grid, Agent, Datably, Feeds etc. And I agree ‘You can build a complex Poster2 blog with just a few Source Coder stacks that are not complex or difficult to debug’ — once you’ve done it a few times and know how to go about it. Well, it’s the same with Photoshop and most complex software: you get to simplicity in the end, but generally only after learning from lots of mistakes.